Devilsguy Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 Looks like there is trouble brewing regarding the London Knights and specifically a game worn Mitch Marner jersey. A game worn collector (he is actually in the big game worn FB group) won an auction for the Mitch Marner 3rd jersey online with a bid that was over $3K. Now here is where things get interesting. According to the article, the issue is according to the team that the guy won his regular season third and not the one worn in the Memorial Cup playoffs and finals. That one was given to the HHOF by the club. Club has said what he has is the one worn in the regular season and they tried everything in their power to satisfy him. Now here is where things get even more interesting. From what is being said on the game worn FB group the issue that the team and article is listing is not in-fact what the collector is arguing. Instead he is saying what he was given was an authentic that had fake wear manufactured on the jersey and given to him as "game worn" when it is not. There is also further evidence that the jersey was a retail authentic that the team just hurriedly put on fake wear. Apparently this is not the first time these junior teams have been caught and/or accused of these types of shenanigans over the years. Interesting how this will play out. http://www.lfpress.com/2016/08/22/a-london-collector-who-paid--3510-for-a-game-jersey-worn-by-london-knights-star-mitch-marner-believes-its-actually-in-the-hockey-hall-of-fame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rhea Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 Having seen the fake wear on the jersey (a puck rubbed on sleeve numbers) the Knights are in the wrong. Also the sticker inside the fight strap is still in tact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsguy Posted August 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, DJ Rhea said: Having seen the fake wear on the jersey (a puck rubbed on sleeve numbers) the Knights are in the wrong. Also the sticker inside the fight strap is still in tact. That's what I heard too and that's terrible. The owner of the team is trying to twist the issue around to make it seem like it is the collector who is being unreasonable when it's an authenticity issue, not a timeline issue (well it is partially). If the team will try to continue down this line and it is proven that they faked the wear, they can kiss their game worn program goodbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 The article reads completely different, like the collector expected the one from the championship that's in the HHOF, not a regular game worn. If the real issue is he thinks its not an actual game worn, then that article is completely slanted in the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rhea Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 I know the guy who is the collector in question. He is quite well known in the FB groups. The Knights wear one set per season, so the the Memorial Cup jersey is the one he should of got. So the Knights got a 2.0 from the Baron and rubbed a puck on it. They then said this was the game worn jersey from all season. So then people get 'photo matching' No matches pop up with the fake damage, funnily enough. The collector is not being unreasonable, the Knights have f***** up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guam64 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 Knew it was Scott before I even clicked on that article. Having deal with him, I'm inclined to believe him as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiggoalie Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 If Steiner can sell legit "gameworn jerseys", I guess anyone can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 hour ago, DJ Rhea said: I know the guy who is the collector in question. He is quite well known in the FB groups. The Knights wear one set per season, so the the Memorial Cup jersey is the one he should of got. So the Knights got a 2.0 from the Baron and rubbed a puck on it. They then said this was the game worn jersey from all season. So then people get 'photo matching' No matches pop up with the fake damage, funnily enough. The collector is not being unreasonable, the Knights have f***** up. If there's only one set, then I understand, it should be the Memorial Cup one. First Justin Bieber now this. It's a bad millennium for Canada so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKevinShow Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: First Justin Bieber now this. It's a bad millennium for Canada so far. And they still have yet to apologize for Celine Dion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsh139 Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 23 minutes ago, TheKevinShow said: And they still have yet to apologize for Celine Dion. And she's a Québécois, which makes it even worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcmstr Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/23/fraud-allegations-around-mitch-marner-shirt-raise-questions-about-sports-memorabilia.html New article, now with pictures. I'm inclined to believe the collector after those pictures. The "wear" is almost comical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, tcmstr said: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/23/fraud-allegations-around-mitch-marner-shirt-raise-questions-about-sports-memorabilia.html New article, now with pictures. I'm inclined to believe the collector after those pictures. The "wear" is almost comical. I can't tell anything from those pictures. I will add, suing for $100k over a $4k jersey dispute is kind of tacky. I'm a lawyer and I don't even like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMLFAN Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Looking at the evidence shown it really does look like they slapped together an authentic and tried to pass it off as game worn. Here's the thing, if they would have just left the jersey without the markings they could have passed it off as being used for a warmup or maybe even part of one period but adding the puck marks just adds a whole lot of shadyness to the situation. We'll see how it turns out. I'm guessing they settle out of court and he signs a confidentiallity agreement so we'll never know the final agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude_Abides Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 23 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: I can't tell anything from those pictures. I will add, suing for $100k over a $4k jersey dispute is kind of tacky. I'm a lawyer and I don't even like that. Agreed. $100K? That's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) Also, fake or not, the listing clearly shows it's not the Memorial Cup patched jersey. But having now looked at the pictures on a larger screen, that is some fake fake fake game wear. Oh, and no way I wouldn't call Slim as my expert witness on jerseys. He wrote the book on jerseys!!! Edited August 24, 2016 by mfitz804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant! Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Those marks on the 9 look like they were drawn on with black chalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlereFlammam Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 The original auction post said that the jersey for sale was used throughout the 2015-16 season. Pretty shady by the Knights. I wonder if they ban him from future games because of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsguy Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, mfitz804 said: Also, fake or not, the listing clearly shows it's not the Memorial Cup patched jersey. But having now looked at the pictures on a larger screen, that is some fake fake fake game wear. Oh, and no way I wouldn't call Slim as my expert witness on jerseys. He wrote the book on jerseys!!! From what little I know about junior gamers is that often the gamers from the memorial cup finals are stripped of the patch before being sold. I think they did that to the Spitfires jerseys the year they won with Taylor Hall on the team IIRC. I could be completely wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guam64 Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, The_Dude_Abides said: Agreed. $100K? That's ridiculous. If they ask for too little the team will just pay him to make it go away and the only way he would see his jersey is if he bought a ticket to the HHOF. This way he at least has a chance of actually getting the jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rhea Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 6 hours ago, Devilsguy said: From what little I know about junior gamers is that often the gamers from the memorial cup finals are stripped of the patch before being sold. I think they did that to the Spitfires jerseys the year they won with Taylor Hall on the team IIRC. I could be completely wrong though. I own a Matt Rupert with the Cup patch, all Knights jerseys this season had the Cup patch too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 7 hours ago, guam64 said: If they ask for too little the team will just pay him to make it go away and the only way he would see his jersey is if he bought a ticket to the HHOF. This way he at least has a chance of actually getting the jersey. According to the article, they were willing to try to get the jersey back from the HHOF to give to him (which makes the team's fraud even more evident, perhaps) but the buyer wouldn't agree to sign a release. I get we're all jersey people, but the way the law works is you get made whole, you don't get a windfall. If he gets back his $4,000, he's whole. Unless he could prove it would be worth more than $4,000 in the future, but that is probably far too speculative to be proven in court. I could call Devilsguy as an expert witness to prove that people overpay for jerseys in an auction setting and in fact, this jersey isn't even worth $4,000 even if it was real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsguy Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 hour ago, mfitz804 said: According to the article, they were willing to try to get the jersey back from the HHOF to give to him (which makes the team's fraud even more evident, perhaps) but the buyer wouldn't agree to sign a release. I get we're all jersey people, but the way the law works is you get made whole, you don't get a windfall. If he gets back his $4,000, he's whole. Unless he could prove it would be worth more than $4,000 in the future, but that is probably far too speculative to be proven in court. I could call Devilsguy as an expert witness to prove that people overpay for jerseys in an auction setting and in fact, this jersey isn't even worth $4,000 even if it was real. I think a large chunk of the lawsuit amount is for punitive damages for faking the jersey and putting him through the gauntlet. Depending on the judge/jury I could see him getting at least something for punitive damages. Re: bolded - Before you subpoena me that actually a depends lol. Yes many times auctions cause people to overpay as you get non-collectors involved, but sometimes you can get good deals on them (the Albany Devils camo jersey auction proved that as it was held with little notice, short listing time ~5 days, and was done in the middle of August). If the only way to get Mitch Marner jerseys up to this point was through auctions (which is what a lot of junior/minor league teams do), then the only references you have for price are the auctions where it could be inflated or low. Would I pay that much for a guy who has never played a minute yet in the NHL? Personally no, but looks like someone else would. If the team made his jerseys available for sale for say $2K a pop, then unless you can clearly explain why the auction jersey is worth the $2K premium over his regular jersey, then you will have a hard time convincing someone it's worth that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Cannon Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 So after all this can't the Knights say "Here's your money but you're no longer allowed to attend any Knight's games."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsguy Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 39 minutes ago, Dr_Puck said: What I find fascinating was that it was a serious collector who purchased the jersey and noticed this. He has that knowledge to instantly smell BS, particularly with the markings on the jersey he received. It makes me wonder what fans without that knowledge would do in similar circumstances. That's the thing, they wouldn't know. That's why gamers without LOA's are harder to sell as you reach less of an audience who don't collect and don't know how to read jerseys and they rely on the all-mighty LOA to "prove" the authenticity. If I was a fan of the London Knights and wasn't a collector and have won previous auctions of gamers, if the team is found to fake this gamer then basically all of the LOA's issued by the team instantly become worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Devilsguy said: I think a large chunk of the lawsuit amount is for punitive damages for faking the jersey and putting him through the gauntlet. Depending on the judge/jury I could see him getting at least something for punitive damages. Re: bolded - Before you subpoena me that actually a depends lol. Yes many times auctions cause people to overpay as you get non-collectors involved, but sometimes you can get good deals on them (the Albany Devils camo jersey auction proved that as it was held with little notice, short listing time ~5 days, and was done in the middle of August). If the only way to get Mitch Marner jerseys up to this point was through auctions (which is what a lot of junior/minor league teams do), then the only references you have for price are the auctions where it could be inflated or low. Would I pay that much for a guy who has never played a minute yet in the NHL? Personally no, but looks like someone else would. If the team made his jerseys available for sale for say $2K a pop, then unless you can clearly explain why the auction jersey is worth the $2K premium over his regular jersey, then you will have a hard time convincing someone it's worth that much. Yes, $80,000 in punitive damages. Which is a joke considering its a $4,000 item. Additionally, that means he sued for $20,000 for the $4,000 jersey. And I am confident I could examine you in a manner which would result in your stating on the stand, under oath, that the Marner jersey is not worth $4,000 at this time, and depending what happens, it could wind up being worth a couple hundred bucks. In any event, a court is not going to award someone $80,000 in punitive damages because they were sold a fake game worn jersey. MAYBE they double the damages and award him $8,000. 40 minutes ago, Dr_Puck said: What I find fascinating was that it was a serious collector who purchased the jersey and noticed this. He has that knowledge to instantly smell BS, particularly with the markings on the jersey he received. It makes me wonder what fans without that knowledge would do in similar circumstances. Well given that it was a $4,000 jersey, I'd hope it was a serious collector! Any fan who has an extra $4,000 to spend on something they DON'T collect is doing way better than I am!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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