What year did teams start selling on-ice authentics?

[lfcjari37]

Just wondering, does anyone know?

[TMLFAN]

Not really sure but I would guess mid-late 80's. Slim?

[rob77ta]

From what I have gathered early to mid seventies for the Flyers. I really didn't believe it, but a good source told me that HSI had a store somewhere in Philadelphia. You could walk in and order an authentic with customization and all. All fight straps were sewn in by the team though.

[pastadutchie]

I have purchased authentics from retail stores in Canada since 1989. I received a couple as gifts before then.

[slimcutta]

Early local suppliers used to offer them because they had sporting goods stores to begin with (Gunzo's, HSI as mentioned above, Century Sports, Pedersons, etc), and said stores were often their beginnings. eg - they started as a sporting goods store, selling merch, and later got contracts to supply/customize for the teams, so any left-overs/returns/etc, they'd sell.

Gerry Cosby's seems to be the anomaly in regards to supplying pro jerseys 'cause they weren't team specific when it came to retail, and offered pros from almost every team. Often we see retail authentics pop up with the Cosby logo on the rear hem and neck tag in the collar. The only pain in finding some of the Cosby gems, is that often the customization was wrong, and they never used nameplates, so if/when you find that '84-85 Canucks jersey from Cosby's, g'luck finding a matching nameplate to correct/fully authenticate the jersey.

As far as I've seen, though, as a uniform offering across the board (pardon the pun), once CCM took over for the marjority of the league, circa '86-87, CCM started putting out retail jerseys that were full size/weight, featured double shoulders/elbows, under-arm gussets, full size logos, but no fight straps, and they all had a sewn on CCM hem patch with the registered ® [/url]

So they weren't fully pro jerseys, but also not as cheap as replicas that were widely available.

These jerseys also featured regular sizing on the collar tags (M, L, XL), and said tags were sewn into the jerseys when assembled (unlike earlier pros with CCM/born-on tags that were just stitched above).

Here's a few examples of those retails -

And one currently on ebay (Kings Dionne).

The tricky part here is that certain teams actually did wear jerseys that featured that same rear hem patch -

But often, the retails weren't made of the same material. Ex - The caps wore mesh jerseys when they had the patch, but the retail (Stevens above) is an ultrafil jersey. By the time the caps switched to ultrafil, they had an embroidered hem logo.

Unfortunately, this means some people can/will sew in fight straps and offer the jerseys as gamers - http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=263&auctionid=62&lotid=551&language=en-CA Which sucks 'cause I'm pretty sure the Babych above wasn't a gamer...thankfully it only sold for $440.

That said, who knows if teams may have actually grabbed one of the retails, or had 'em lost in the bunch and maybe used them at one point or another? I doubt it, but you never know...plenty of one-offs out there.

After those, all evidence points to fully pro authentics (same as on-ice) becoming available around '89-90, and later fully marketed through the Center Ice Collection circa '92

[00xtremeninja]

I know Steichens in St. Paul who did the North Stars jerseys would get them back at the end of the season and sell the game worns in their store. Something like 50-100 bucks for a gamer off the rack and into your home.

The Wild have always offered authentics since their arrival to the league

[ScotiaCygnus]

hese jerseys also featured regular sizing on the collar tags (M, L, XL), and said tags were sewn into the jerseys when assembled (unlike earlier pros with CCM/born-on tags that were just stitched above).

But often, the retails weren't made of the same material. Ex - The caps wore mesh jerseys when they had the patch, but the retail (Stevens above) is an ultrafil jersey. By the time the caps switched to ultrafil, they had an embroidered hem logo.

You learn something new everyday, I'll need to bear that in mind on my next (futile) Caps hunt. Cheers, Slim!

[lfcjari37]

Thanks for that info Slim So can we say that most authentics from pre-89 would have been team issued?

[slimcutta]

So can we say that most authentics from pre-89 would have been team issued?

Good question, but what is considered 'team issued'?

Often enough, at least back in the day (and pre-Meigray), teams would sell off old equipment/materials -

http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=263&auctionid=23&lotid=420

Picture having bought 16 effin jerseys for $602!! Wish I'd been watching that auction.

Same with this one - http://www.classicauctions.net/Default.aspx?tabid=263&auctionid=23&lotid=421

10 x 1979-80 Maska Oilers jerseys. Crazyness.

So technically speaking, these jerseys came directly from the team and are therefore 'team issued', but what about after you take them all to EPS and have them customized? Are they still team issued?

Conversely, what if you walked into Gunzo's store circa '85 and bought an authentic Hawks jersey off the rack and had 'em do it up as your favorite Hawk...is it considered a team-issued 'cause it came from Gunzo's, the guys who supplied/customized for the team?

I would like to think that a 'team issued' jersey would imply a pro jersey that was prepared by the team (team supplier) specifically for a player on the team, to be used on ice, but just never got used. But more importantly, it needs to be authenticated as such. Anything else is just an authentic jersey, IMO.

The one exception I can think of would be Calgary Flames jerseys, since the Flames on-ice gamers/team issued, at least back in the 80s/early 90s, all had 3 layer crests, the base layer matching the jersey color, but retail authentics only have 2 layer.

Which brings into question those jerseys that have a team stamp on the inside hem. So there's no question it's a team issued, right?

ex - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Authentic-Game-Worn-Al-MacInnis-Calgary-Flames-Hockey-Jersey-HOF-/390569317644?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aefbed50c&nma=true&si=wtDQpTfvVPth1rUkvBWMLDL82Os%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_2824wt_917

But despite being a pre-season, was this worn by Mr. MacInnis? 'cause if it was, $201 is an absolute steal.

There was a blank Islanders with a team stamp on the inside hem that sold last night for around $180...I would imagine whoever bought it will have it customized, and at some point will sell it as a team-issued jersey.

Anyways, I guess that's a whole other story.

Buyer beware, right?

[LAK74]

So technically speaking, these jerseys came directly from the team and are therefore 'team issued', but what about after you take them all to EPS and have them customized? Are they still team issued?

Conversely, what if you walked into Gunzo's store circa '85 and bought an authentic Hawks jersey off the rack and had 'em do it up as your favorite Hawk...is it considered a team-issued 'cause it came from Gunzo's, the guys who supplied/customized for the team?

I would like to think that a 'team issued' jersey would imply a pro jersey that was prepared by the team (team supplier) specifically for a player on the team, to be used on ice, but just never got used.

This is an interesting question of nomenclature, and I'd like to hear what others think about this. To me, if a jersey was provided to a team with the intention of using it on-ice, then it's a team-issue, even it was never used. (In some cases this jersey might be exactly the same as a retail authentic.) Once that unused jersey leaves the team and enters the collector world, it should still be a team-issue, even if someone gets it customized somewhere, and even if the customization is wrong. Once a jersey was issued to a team, that fact can't be undone. Someone who sells a team-issued jersey which was customized after the fact should have the obligation to mention this, but technically I don't think it's wrong to say the jersey was a team-issue, especially if the jersey contains features that were unique to the team-issueds and different from the retails, like the crest features Slim mentioned, or even the double twill layer on Edge fight straps. Now if the team gets the jersey customized for a specific player by the team's official customizer for use in a game, then I consider this "game-issued." As soon as this game-issued jersey gets used by that player in a game, then it becomes "game-worn." This is how I look at it.

[rob77ta]

I went through this scenario last year. I wound up landing a 75-76 HSI knit Flyers jersey from an auction house that was thrown in with a lot of other Philly authentics. The nameplate had been removed and the glue residue was still present. It had little to no wear but the numbers and crest definately matched up to all gamers from that timeframe all the way down to the pin holes in the numbers. It was how the old school customizers used to hold everything in place until it was sewn down.

So the quest began. It was customized with #26 and the removed nameplate was definately long enough to accomodate Kindrachuk. So game issued Kindrachuk right? Not so fast....

I posted numerous photos of the jersey over on gameworn.net asking for opinions. I had narrowed it down to being a jersey that may have been issued to Kindrachuk and not used because it was too large. This parricular jersey was size XL and he usually wore a L. It also never received a fight strap treatment and my research of other Kindrachuk Flyers gamers showed that they all had straps. So this was my assumption that it was made up for him to use on the ice but was a mistake by HSI. It would explain the missing nameplate as it was probably stripped and put on the correct size jersey.

I was contacted by gw.net Flyers expert and MeiGray guru Stu. He was the one that advised me of the public being able to obtain an authentic jersey directly from HSI even back in the mid 1970's. So it was possible but Orest Kindrachuk? I could see if it was a Clarke, Barber, or Parent jersey. It just seemed odd to me that someone would walk in and request a Kindrachuk jersey out of all the great players on those teams. He sort of agreed with me but stated that without a letter from the Flyers authenticating it as once being in their possession or a detailed history of the jersey changing hands, only a photomatch could authenticate it.

A few weeks later I was contacted by a personal friend of Orest Kindrachuk who stated that he would like to restore the nameplate and return the jersey to him. We came to an agreement on price and the jersey moved on, hopefully to Orest. Heck, maybe he remembers the jersey that was supplied to him that was too big. With all of the complications that would lie ahead trying to authenticate the jersey, I just felt like it was the right thing to do.

Moral to the story, older possible team issued jerseys can be very hard to authenticate. My gut feeling is that the one I had was a legit team issued jersey, not a retail authentic.

[Whiskeypete]

it raises other questions and opinions. what if it was worn only in pre-season by a prospect? what if it was worn by a regular roster player, but they are a regular scratch. the team then moves to a new set without the jersey ever seeing 'actual' game time?

[lfcjari37]

So is it fair to say that, say a Wings jersey with Eastside on the hem or a Hawks jersey with Gunzos on the hem, that these customizers would always put their name on the hem of jerseys they customized?

[slimcutta]

So is it fair to say that, say a Wings jersey with Eastside on the hem or a Hawks jersey with Gunzos on the hem, that these customizers would always put their name on the hem of jerseys they customized?

No...you can find blank jerseys with the hem logos that are later customized (often improperly) elsewhere, and collectos like you and I can just as easily go get hem logos added to jerseys that were never touched by Eastside or Gunzo's.

[lfcjari37]

Ah that makes sense.

[enzo269]

Slim... Agree with a lot of what you said.. I am a native NYer and have a few Gerry Cosby sweaters from the 1980's and 1990's that I bought. Cosby's was really the only legit place to get an authentic jersey when I was a kid.. All of the Cosby NY Rangers authentics were done correctly as they were the official customizer of the team as we know.. I am going to post a few here and would like to get your feedback as I have a couple of non NY Rangers sweaters that were customized by Cosby's that are lettered ok, but not perfect.. My Duguay is authentic on ice from 1982... As is my 1990 Beezer... The Wings Klima is from 1987 and does not have a fight strap... One of those replenthentics you mentioned I guess... The 1991 Klima is authentic on ice CCM... Love to hear your feedback on these..

[HawksFanInDC]

This is an interesting question of nomenclature, and I'd like to hear what others think about this. To me, if a jersey was provided to a team with the intention of using it on-ice, then it's a team-issue, even it was never used. (In some cases this jersey might be exactly the same as a retail authentic.) Once that unused jersey leaves the team and enters the collector world, it should still be a team-issue, even if someone gets it customized somewhere, and even if the customization is wrong. Once a jersey was issued to a team, that fact can't be undone. Someone who sells a team-issued jersey which was customized after the fact should have the obligation to mention this, but technically I don't think it's wrong to say the jersey was a team-issue, especially if the jersey contains features that were unique to the team-issueds and different from the retails, like the crest features Slim mentioned, or even the double twill layer on Edge fight straps. Now if the team gets the jersey customized for a specific player by the team's official customizer for use in a game, then I consider this "game-issued." As soon as this game-issued jersey gets used by that player in a game, then it becomes "game-worn." This is how I look at it.

My personal opinion is you can say a team issued jersey is such if you do not alter the jersey from how you received it. For example: Hawks Edge 2.0 with vector and double reinforced fight strap. While it is a team issued jersey, I have altered it by getting it customized with Toews, so think it would be disingenuous to say team issued if I ever tried to sell it, as this would imply it was issued in this manner to Toews. You can clarify but I think that would end up being to inside baseball to non-collectors.

Game issued is the same for me, cannot be altered. I bought this Jackets alternate from the team store, it was a game issued Mayorov (never worn). I had it stripped and re-done and now only say it is an authentic 2.0 even though it was issued to the team, a player, and has everything Hunwick wore including the wordmark sewn over the vector.

I never want to represent something I have as more rare than it is, just leads to ridicule in the community and accusations if you try to sell it.

[SnakeOiler12]

Nice Cosby jerseys up there Enzo. Did the Rangers on-ice, game worn jerseys have the Cosby logo on it or just the retail authentics?

Did Cosby do the Isles or Devils on-ice personalization or just the Rangers?

[enzo269]

Cosby's did the Devils for a short period of time sometime in the 80's... Syosset Sports on Long Island did the Islanders customization for many years..

There was a period of time when Cosby put their logo on all the Rangers authentics including the Rangers gamers and the NHL put the kibosh on all of them shortly thereafter... Cosby's in NY, Gunzo's in Chicago and Eastside in Detroit to name a few, all were not allowed to put their logo's on the hem anylonger..

All the dates are a blur to me now, but the NHL cracked down on the customizers sometime in the late 1980's.

I have many fond memories of Gerry Cosby's store growing up as a kid in NY.. It was right in MSG (now they have moved to 31st St). You would walk in there and they would have customized authentics from many teams and their star players hanging from the ceiling for sale... It was a great store.. I remember drooling in there as a kid, wanting a Ron Duguay or Barry Beck jersey.. My mom finally stepped up and got me one when I was 12. I was in heaven.. Good stuff..

[SnakeOiler12]

I remember their old store so well too. The first thing I would do when getting off the train at MSG would be to zip in there. It was a hockey fan's version of being a "kid in a candy store." All those authentics hanging plus the equipment -- which you usually did not see in the U.S. at the time. I'm glad they are still around, but their current store is so small, it's a far cry from what it had previously been.

Do you know what years they did the Devils unis?

[enzo269]

I believe Cosby's did the Devils in 84-85 and 85-86... But I am not 100% sure.. I remember a collector that I am friends with had a Kirk Muller from 85-86 that had Cosby on the hem.. I think Custom Crafted did the Devils after that...

[slimcutta]

I am going to post a few here and would like to get your feedback as I have a couple of non NY Rangers sweaters that were customized by Cosby's that are lettered ok, but not perfect.. The Wings Klima is from 1987 and does not have a fight strap... One of those replenthentics you mentioned I guess... The 1991 Klima is authentic on ice CCM... Love to hear your feedback on these..

The Red Wings Klima is one of the retails I was talking about.

The Oilers Klima is a pro CCM, but unfortunately the Oilers never used that style on-ice. They recycled NIKEs and covered the rear hem into '90, then started using large block CCM mesh sans NHL logo for a short period -

Then switched to Air-Knit and added the NHL logo by the end of the '90 season.

Rangers only wore the Cosby logo during '87-88.

Look out, Brian!!!

Most hem logos disappeared by '89, but for some reason Custom Crafted logos were still present on devils, blues, and bruins jerseys up to '91-'92, they were just 'invisible' -

As far as Devils, Enzo's got 'er; '84-86

[slimcutta]

I have many fond memories of Gerry Cosby's store growing up as a kid in NY.. It was right in MSG (now they have moved to 31st St). You would walk in there and they would have customized authentics from many teams and their star players hanging from the ceiling for sale... It was a great store.. I remember drooling in there as a kid, wanting a Ron Duguay or Barry Beck jersey.. My mom finally stepped up and got me one when I was 12. I was in heaven.. Good stuff..

That sounds sooo boring.

#totallyenvious

A fellow member on here was recently telling me that Gunzo's also isn't even close to what it used to be, and worse, they can't replicate what they used to do, eg- can't properly customized the '85 Hawks jersey you found one day at that garage sale.

[Brian]

I have many fond memories of Gerry Cosby's store growing up as a kid in NY.. It was right in MSG (now they have moved to 31st St). You would walk in there and they would have customized authentics from many teams and their star players hanging from the ceiling for sale... It was a great store.. I remember drooling in there as a kid, wanting a Ron Duguay or Barry Beck jersey.. My mom finally stepped up and got me one when I was 12. I was in heaven.. Good stuff..

Nice walk down memory lane. I know I’m dating myself here, but try to imagine Cosbys in the 1960s. I would take the bus from New Jersey to the PA Terminal and walk up 8^th Avenue to see the Rangers in the Old MSG. Browsing through Cosbys was a must before and after the games. I don’t think there was a more complete hockey store in the entire NYC area. Skates (CCM Tacks and Bauer Supremes), sticks, gloves, and the jerseys….the jerseys. I think over time I ended up getting two pairs of skates, gloves, sticks, and socks from them, along with several jerseys.