NoThreadSet Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hi guys. Right off the bat, I want to say this is a great forum you all have put together here. There’s A LOT of useful information to be gleaned from this site for sure. That being said, I’m new to the forum and I apologize right away if this is posted in the wrong discussion. I have a few questions that I’m hoping some of you can weigh in on and hopefully point me in the right direction. Let me give just a little background. I won’t bore you with too much minutia of the details. I’ve been collecting the CCM Center Ice Authentic jerseys since about 1992. They were mostly mail order from Rivercity Sports in Toronto (I live in Minneapolis, MN). I bought 11 jerseys in total from Rivercity Sports before the 1st shift from the CCM embroidered/NHL Orange shield tail. I think I stopped collecting them when the NHL logo was changed to the familiar silver/black shield (circa. 1998-2000) used now. So these jerseys are what I’ve used to gauge ‘authenticity’ over the years. As I’m sure most of you know, you can look at the embroidered CCM/NHL shield and know for certain if it’s authentic or not. Well then the rise of the ‘Vintage’ jersey started appearing, and again, most of you probably know the subtle differences between Authentic and Vintage. Recently had the displeasure of purchasing, what I believe to be a fake jersey, from Ebay a road Quebec Nordiques that was touted as, “Quebec Nordiques Authentic not vintage CCM Jersey”, which in the seller’s listing he posted roughly 7 hi-res pics of the item in question. I was completely taken with the chance of finally getting the road Nordiques jersey that I failed to recognize some irregularities in the photos, which I’m still kicking myself for now. Basically, I asked the seller for a refund, to which he flatly refused. He then sent me a few follow up emails challenging me to prove that it was a fake. In one email he stated “I don't know that this is not a true Centre Ice Authentic CCM jersey. It's just your opinion that it is not. I have lots of these CCM hockey jerseys from the 1990's and I can't tell the difference.” Even with the admission of his lack of knowledge about the item; he maintained that it was all in my mind. My first question is discerning the difference between Authentic and Vintage. I know that CCM marketed a line of ‘Vintage’ defunct NHL team jerseys which I have never really had a lot of interest with. I kind of looked at them like the Mitchell & Ness of NHL but more affordable. So in my quest to confirm differences to what I believe is authentic vs. what I believe is fake; I have a few pics of my Authentic Center Ice Collection Quebec Nordiques purchased from Rivercity Sport in the ‘90s and pics of the so-called authentic I received from Ebay. Would some of you please weigh in with some opinions? Some of my photos aren’t that great, I apologize. The following images are home (white) authentic; road (blue) fake. Chest (Logo) Logo (Detail) Sleeve Cuff (Detail) One of the big tip-offs for me was how the cuffs where the colors change from white to blue are dyed on the authentic, but the cuffs are sewn on to the fake jersey. Hem Front (Detail) Another tip-off was the attached hemline also sewn on like the cuffs. The biggest tip-off comes from the CCM/NHL shield embroidery - On all of the CCMs I own, the embroidery penetrates both sides of the hemline not just the front. Hem Rear (Detail) I have since opened a case with Ebay about the seller advertising one thing and selling something else, to which Ebay has shifted the burden of proof to me. They have closed the case and exonerated the seller, stating that what he listed was what I got. Well in a sense that’s true, what he listed was what I got, but what he claimed is not what I got. I have appealed the case to Ebay, to which they have stated that I need to acquire, “documentation from the manufacturer of the brand name item or qualified third party stating that item you bought is not authentic. They must clearly describe how the item you received differs from an authentic item and how the person evaluating the item determined that it isn't authentic. If possible, the statement should include a serial number. In addition, it must be made on letterhead that includes the name, address, and phone number of the business. This allows us to contact them if we need more information.” Ebay has basically washed their hands of this leaving me with 10 days to prove my claim in order to secure a full refund from either the seller or Ebay, so I turn to this community for some advice on what steps that I could maybe take to prove this fraud. Hindsight is always 20/20, and there were some signs, looking at the posting now, that didn’t seem to pan out in terms of authenticity. The biggest deficiency in the seller’s photos was that he never showed a picture of the inside of the back hemline to show the CCM embroidery. I blame myself for overlooking that, but his other photos were convincing enough to sell this item. Does anybody have any suggestions on how I might secure some of this information for Ebay to refund me? Thanks for looking, and thanks in advance for any suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboys Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Yes Ebay sucks for that ,the best was to open a case about the condition or can not get the creases out of the crest . Ebay throws it at the seller "it Fake " they want you to prove its fake getting it authenticated . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimcutta Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Can you link us to the original auction? If he hasn't provided the detailed pics you have (or info in the listing), and you can show ebay the differences that weren't obvious in the initial auction, they may take that as proof enough. eg - the crest on an authentic is layered twill, where the fake is embroidered, etc. Things that weren't detailed in the listing, but become apparent in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks for the replies guys. this is the link for the original auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121058832376 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islesfan25 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 That seller just bought a jersey off of me. He was a very good buyer. Not that one but an Islanders one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStanley94 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 I got burned once buying the exact same style fake nordiques off of eBay. this was a long time ago before I even knew they had begun faking those style jerseys. it seems the nordiques are plagued worst with it. I honestly doubt you'll have any luck through eBay as he sent you exactly what was in the pictures but I wish you the best of luck. I just decided to sell mine to someone who didn't care it was a fake. look at how many people knowingly by counterfeit edge jerseys to save themselves some dough, I'm sure you can find someone more than willing to take it off your hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsBennGreat Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Have you've tried filing a disupute with Paypal...if that's what you used to pay? Or have you've just gone through eBay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Now that's an interesting suggestion. I have not filed with PayPal, and i paid with PayPal. You think that they would take up a case against this guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboys Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Yes but go at it a different way ,they are part of ebay they will ask you to tell them why its fake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 That is interesting, because in my initial case submission I mentioned that it was fake at the outset, but I put more emphasis on the fact that it was flawed, in that there was a small rip and stain that was never mentioned in the auction. Which had it been mentioned, I would have passed on it right from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboys Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Well thats what the claim you put in with paypal if different from the sellers description you have a case good luck F uck all fake sellers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItsBennGreat Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 eBay's recent changes in feedback and disputes have put it all in favor of the seller not the buyer. I would suggest calling Paypal at their number and hypothetically asking about how to address this issue without actualling filing a claim. You may get some advice from them how to to address this situation. Good luck with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsl135 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 eBay's recent changes in feedback and disputes have put it all in favor of the seller not the buyer. I would suggest calling Paypal at their number and hypothetically asking about how to address this issue without actualling filing a claim. You may get some advice from them how to to address this situation. Good luck with it! Really? I was under the impression that eBay still gave overwhelming support to the buyer... When did this change? And what exactly changed that made it this way. Normally they always side with the buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akteon Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 I agree with DSL, in my experience as both a buyer and seller on eBay, I'd say over the years their policy changes have been slanted towards empowering buyers and neutering sellers. Sellers can't even leave negative feedback anymore. I had an auction that stated my preferred payment method was Paypal. A buyer won my auction and then told me they'd only pay in cash. I said PayPal only, buyer refused and said they can only pay via cash through the mail. I contact eBay and said the buyer was refusing to pay and that even eBay's seller policies say it's against the rules to accept payment in cash. I was told by eBay that as a seller you can't ask for someone to pay in cash, but that if a buyer wants to pay in cash I can't say they are refusing to pay. I couldn't even leave negative feedback for the buyer. That's why I only do fixed price auctions because you can force the person to pay with PayPal before the item is considered purchased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 Just got off the phone with CCM/Reebok... they won't touch it... But they're suggestion is to find a local CCM retailer and talk with somebody in the shop to see if they'd be willing to vouch for me. I have 8 days until this case closes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great1 Posted March 25, 2013 Report Share Posted March 25, 2013 If you paid with a credit card through paypal then I suggest filling a dispute with your credit card company against the paypal transaction. Paypal will open a dispute against the seller which you will ultimately win because you will already have your refund, then the seller will have to prove that the jersey was authentic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzo269 Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Yeah.. What others have said... Put in a claim with Paypal... They will deduct the money you paid for the sweater when the claim is filed.. The seller will have to prove within a couple of weeks that the jersey is authentic or you'll get your money back... Also, you could go the damaged goods route too.. That would most ceratinly work as he didnt mention in his listing.. Good Luck.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Wow - Ebay really covers their a**, because when I went to file a case in PayPal it said that I already had a case pending for the same transaction through Ebay.. It's looking like I'm just going to have to chalk this up as a learning experience taught by a certain JBJAMES on Ebay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classichockeyjerseys Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Don't you get Buyer Protection on EBay/PayPal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00xtremeninja Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 guess then the only thing to do is pop in a negative feedback to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsl135 Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Wow - Ebay really covers their a**, because when I went to file a case in PayPal it said that I already had a case pending for the same transaction through Ebay.. It's looking like I'm just going to have to chalk this up as a learning experience taught by a certain JBJAMES on Ebay... Wait so the case in eBay isn't done yet? If its still just an open case, with just communication between you and the buyer, escalate it to a claim in eBay. That will take care of the problem. eBay isn't really "covering their Arse." PayPal and eBay are essentially the same thing (they're owned by the same company). But yea, you can't have two open cases on one transaction. Frankly, that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great1 Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Where did you paypal funds come from? Were you using your account balance, a bank account or a credit card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoThreadSet Posted March 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 No, the seller escalated the case, Ebay put the case on hold, then sent me an email saying they ruled in favor of the seller. I then appealed the case, and that's when they gave me the BS about prove it fake and we'll refund you. So technically the case is closed. I didn't get a chance to escalate it and my only defense was the initial 2000 character description that I gave when I opened the case. Now they've given me 10 days (7 more) to prove that it's a fake item, while JBJAMES sails off in the sunset... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00xtremeninja Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 best shot then is use those pictures and descriptions from this thread you gave us and pray it works. might help if you have other jerseys from that era to compare to as well and throw pics in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryzilla73 Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 always dispute cases on Paypal. Ebay is a disaster. Paypal is more apt to handle things properly due to the spread of their business. Any dispute i have ever had on Paypal, has been rectified, they suspend the account and hold funds as soon as the claim is made- forcing action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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