Cutting Edge closes?

[madflava]

I was able to purchase a game worn Pirates Scheistel jersey with team letter and then photomatch it for less than what he's selling so-called "game issued" shirts with no provenance. What Cutting Edge had may very well be team shirts that they failed to return to the clubs ... or might be extras that were subsequently sewn up. With the obvious issues on all of the Predators jerseys listed, I'm staying clear of these jerseys.

I can understand your reasons for steering clear of the pro jerseys he has listed. All the items have make an offer and xahl goalie only list them at those prices because he knows people will almost always offer only half or less than half of the prices he's listed. Believe me, I did not pay the $200+ for the game issue Caps era Portland jersey. I got a very good deal using make an offer and going back and for until we agreed on a fair price for the jersey. I have had a hard time finding blank authentics of these jerseys from when they were a Caps affiliate. Game used is nice but I can't get the jersey of the player I really want without paying a whole lot more.

[cowboys]

I can understand your reasons for steering clear of the pro jerseys he has listed. All the items have make an offer and xahl goalie only list them at those prices because he knows people will almost always offer only half or less than half of the prices he's listed. Believe me, I did not pay the $200+ for the game issue Caps era Portland jersey. I got a very good deal using make an offer and going back and for until we agreed on a fair price for the jersey. I have had a hard time finding blank authentics of these jerseys from when they were a Caps affiliate. Game used is nice but I can't get the jersey of the player I really want without paying a whole lot more.

That is not true he holds out for as much as he can I purshased a 2011 all star jersey for 240.00 shipped even when I told him I was a member here ,and that deal was done off ebay so he even saved the fees .He first asked me to send as a gift and I would not .I have purshased two patchs from this seller also and one that was said to be an authentic Pittsburgh all star patch but is nothing but a screen printed patch . Lets see what he does about that

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280903564741?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

[BPerkins]

If these shirts were listed as blank or customized authentics, I'd have no problem with the ebay listings. The second they are listed as "game" or "team" issued there is an issue of provenance. Teams don't get jerseys prepared for game use in the wrong size. They don't get jerseys prepared for use using CCM hemmed jerseys in the era of Reebok lettermarks. If these supposedly "game issued" shirts were from a team participating in the Meigray program, there should be evidence of a Meigray tag in the hem, if not the tag itself.

There may be some actual game worn or team purchased shirts in that lot. With the blanket descriptions, there is no way of telling on ebay. If you're looking for a particular style blank to later customize into your favorite player, he might have a deal for you. If you're looking for a legit game issued sweater, I see provenance issues. The Roy description keeps evolving so ......

[BPerkins]

• Good advice, OXBO. I had my eye on one of his AHL jerseys, and I wasn’t even aware of the size discrepancy until ‘mygameworn’ mentioned it. Anyway, the auction had a while to run and I figured I would hold off on making an offer until after the Meigray sale. As it turns out, the jersey was recently sold to someone who offered a bit more than I would have, so no harm done (at least to me) there.
  All the authentics I own have been bought through Meigray, with the exception of an item I got off eBay that came with a Steiner hologram and LOA. You have definitely got to be wary of any number of the eBay offerings, from this and other sellers. I plan on limiting my buying to Meigray, who I consider to be the industry gold standard.
  

Meigray and Steiner both do a great job of authenticating a jersey up until it hits that first buyer. From that point on, any deals become a matter of trust between you and whomever holds the jersey at that time. Unfortunately, all of the Meigray and Steiner protections do nothing to stop somebody from adding wear or captaincy letters after purchase. They are out there.

Meigray does make collecting with a level of confidence rather easy. The drawback is the limited number of teams, leagues, and years they have in stock. The agreement with Dallas for 2011-12 never came to fruition so you can't buy Bachman or Fraser game worn. Their agreement with the Predators only included set one jerseys so Gill, Radulov, and Gaustad are supposedly getting sold by the team. Sticking to Meigray eliminates the current AHL jerseys, the Rangers, Canucks, Canadian major junior, and a lot more.

Without turning this into a pro or anti Milt thread, his maxim of "do your homework" definitely applies to collecting sports memorabilia. If you know what right looks like for whatever you collect then spotting listings with red flags is easy ... even on ebay. Most good items don't need elaborate backstories like the ever changing tale of the Roy.

[NYIJM29]

We all know the differences between 1.0/2.0s, etc. It is obvious the blank jerseys are authentic (and some are even 2.0s!) and Madflava is right in his write-up.

[BPerkins]

We all know the differences between 1.0/2.0s, etc. It is obvious the blank jerseys are authentic (and some are even 2.0s!) and Madflava is right in his write-up.

Retail "authentic" AHL jerseys have been 2.0s for the past several seasons. He's got "team issued" jerseys that lack the AHL patch on the back which is even part of retail blanks. "Authentic" does not equal "team issued" or "game issued"

[mygameworn]

I have never really heard the term "team issued". Those are nothing more then glorified Authentics. Look at the Monarchs, they had a Quick jersey. It was a GI that was made just incase he came back, but it had the retail stickers still on them. They EXPLAINED the whole thing and it came with a LOA stating that.

The former goalie's rep is going by the wayside. Not to mention he's flooding the markey with those patches that will get in to the wrong hands and he and his other partner don't give a ######.

xahl what say you?

[cjerina]

Retail "authentic" AHL jerseys have been 2.0s for the past several seasons. He's got "team issued" jerseys that lack the AHL patch on the back which is even part of retail blanks. "Authentic" does not equal "team issued" or "game issued"

That is probably because the AHL patch was stripped to be used for the 2011/12 set where they instead wore the AHL 75th patch. There was at least 1 Wolves player last season that wore a jersey without the AHL patch on the back.

[rabinsurance]

That is probably because the AHL patch was stripped to be used for the 2011/12 set where they instead wore the AHL 75th patch. There was at least 1 Wolves player last season that wore a jersey without the AHL patch on the back.

It was the 2010-11 season that the 75th anniversary patches were worn at the tail of the jersey, not the 11-12 season.

[cjerina]

It was the 2010-11 season that the 75th anniversary patches were worn at the tail of the jersey, not the 11-12 season.

Right, thank you.

[lhg39]

Again, I am not casting any accusations, but there are questions a plenty and I find it amazing that some of you keep defending him.

See this thread for more issues: http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=009907

[NYIJM29]

Louis, I'm defending him because I have bought from Chris. I am glad I was able to get what I wanted at a fair market price. The jerseys I received are extremely difficult to find new. I'm going to buy what I want regardless of the seller's terminology to describe a jersey because I know what I am getting.

If the terminology is what is pissing everyone off, ask for clarification on the jersey. The communication was top notch in my dealings.

BPerkins: I am under the impression that the AHL retail 2.0s are the same exact jerseys the team would use. They do not make 2 different 2.0s for AHL use (while the NHL 2.0s for the WC/ASG are different than what is worn on ice). As Cjerina answered, that is the likely reason why the AHL patch is missing. Since that patch is missing, wouldn't that mean it is a team issued jersey?

[Gr8erade]

Louis, I'm defending him because I have bought from Chris. I am glad I was able to get what I wanted at a fair market price. The jerseys I received are extremely difficult to find new. I'm going to buy what I want regardless of the seller's terminology to describe a jersey because I know what I am getting.

If the terminology is what is pissing everyone off, ask for clarification on the jersey. The communication was top notch in my dealings.

BPerkins: I am under the impression that the AHL retail 2.0s are the same exact jerseys the team would use. They do not make 2 different 2.0s for AHL use (while the NHL 2.0s for the WC/ASG are different than what is worn on ice). As Cjerina answered, that is the likely reason why the AHL patch is missing. Since that patch is missing, wouldn't that mean it is a team issued jersey?

I agree 100%. When I had questions about a particular item, he answered them promptly and to my satisfaction. I've had no issues with either jersey I purchased and was able to negotiate a price that I thought was fair. If I couldn't have, then I wouldn't have made the purchase. It really is that simple for me. Calling him out on the board or trying to debate with him on a bulletin board over a product that you think is mismarked or you don't like the way it is described isn't the way to go about it. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to buy it.

[BPerkins]

Louis, I'm defending him because I have bought from Chris. I am glad I was able to get what I wanted at a fair market price. The jerseys I received are extremely difficult to find new. I'm going to buy what I want regardless of the seller's terminology to describe a jersey because I know what I am getting.

If the terminology is what is pissing everyone off, ask for clarification on the jersey. The communication was top notch in my dealings.

BPerkins: I am under the impression that the AHL retail 2.0s are the same exact jerseys the team would use. They do not make 2 different 2.0s for AHL use (while the NHL 2.0s for the WC/ASG are different than what is worn on ice). As Cjerina answered, that is the likely reason why the AHL patch is missing. Since that patch is missing, wouldn't that mean it is a team issued jersey?

A patch missing on a jersey with no provenance doesn't make it a "team issued" jersey ... it makes it a jersey missing a patch that should be on it.

Words mean things which is why terminology is important. How many of the "game issued" or "team issued" jerseys are the wrong size? I stopped counting at four. The Kariya Predators "issued" jersey was the wrong manufacturer for his time there ... a highly unlikely occurrence for a NHL team "issued" jersey. The Roy has transitioned from his first white jersey to something else entirely. Those are just the shirts with glaring questions.

As I've said ... call them customized authentics and it's an accurate statement. "Game issued" claims without provenance don't hold up. There are so many closeups of the neck tagging and patches, yet none of the stamps/tags that some of the shirts should have if truly "game issued."

I'll let those who collect basketball memorabilia worry about if the names were on the Celtics warmups at auction or added later as has been claimed.

[xahlgoalie]

Just so everyone is clear, this is not my job it was something I did as a hobby. I do not expect everyone to believe what we have but I do have a letter from each of the owners explaining what they are. Some are clearly game worm because of wear and repairs and some were prepared for players and teams but for whatever the reason, maybe because of the lawsuit never left their shop. I welcome everyone's feedback because I am not an expert or claim to be. We did make a mistake on the Roy and ended up changing the listing as well as a couple others. The all star patch I sent out was not listed correctly so I told James to keep it and I would refund his money so he is out nothing. Most jerseys I accept best offers unless I only have one in which case I hold out for more. There is no deception on our end. We list as to what the people who owned the jerseys tell us what they are and if it ends up being a mistake we fix it. I agree with some of the guys on the board. If you don't like it or think we are scammers. Don't buy it and don't message me telling me I am dishonest. We have sold over 90 items in the last 2 weeks and with the exception of 1 patch and 1 jersey everyone has been very happy. Not sure what else to tell you other than these jersey never left the warehouse so most were never finished and you wouldn't see some tagging that you normally see. Hope that helps. Thanks

[NYIJM29]

But it doesn't automatically not make it a team issued jersey just because it is missing a patch either. You cannot simply right off things because you don't like the terminology of other items listed. The AHL jerseys listed are more likely team issued jerseys than retail jerseys.

Team issued means the jersey belonged to the team and was intended for their use (this has always been the meaning I used). So listing a jersey as team issued, by definition is not wrong. What about all of those people who bought MGG overstock and got them customized to their favorite players? Hypothetically speaking, say someone ordered a 1.0 NYI Navy size 58 and got it customized to Tavares. Is the jersey no longer team issued because the owner customized the jersey to a player who didnt wear a size 58 and never wore a 1.0? No. The jersey is still team issued. Not game issued (I understand your argument in regards to GI).

Question: When does, say a MeiGray tag, get added to a jersey? Once it is customized? Before it gets customized? After it gets customized and goes to MeiGray? What if the team did not belong to MeiGray and the jerseys were stamped by Cutting Edge...then when were the jerseys stamped? Before customization? Right before going out to a team?

[xahlgoalie]

What I have been told by BOTH owners is they did not do AHL replicas they did them for the teams. I had a guy come from Portland who has over 400 jerseys and told me they are all team issued as well as the gamers and some that he didnt know what they were. Also sold to the monarchs who confirmed their authenticity as well as the Worcester sharks and the Washington capitals. So we may have a jersey or two that doesn't add up but from what I have been told by the TEAMS they are the real deal. As far as patches, where do you think I got the meigray? I didn't make them up they were put on jerseys by cutting edge.

[lhg39]

Off topic:

I do not consider jersey overstock that MeiGray sells or gives away at the Expo to be 'Team Issued' and I do not believe MeiGray would ever use that term. They are over stock, remainders, whatever. If I customize one, I consider no better than a better quality authentic. Just because it 'might' have gone to or been used by the team does not make it a team issued jersey.

A 'Game Issued' has to have been prepared for a specific player, in THEIR size, to have potentially been worn in a game. Anything else is nothing more than a 'sample'.

[xahlgoalie]

Ok so everyone is hung up on the terminology. So what should I call them. If a jersey was purchased by the team and then sent to be customized, if there are extra they are not team issued? They are replica? Doesn't make sense to me. If it belonged to the team then it was issued by the team. Butaybe I missing something.

[akteon]

The most common definition for "Team Issue" that I've seen is a jersey that was manufactured to be used by the team, as opposed to sold at retail. In the case of RBK Edge NHL jerseys and even RBK/Koho/CCM 6100 NHL jerseys these were easily identified by the lack of extra neck tagging found on the retail versions. Often there are other differences like material (Edge 2.0 vs 1.0/indo) and sizes (58+) or cuts (goalie) that aren't available in the stock retail versions. Someone said they are "glorified authentics" which is entirely true - they have no provenance and may never have even ended up in the hands of the team themselves or the team customizer etc. Look at all of the team issue NHL RBK Edge/6100s that were in the SVP sale, I'd assume those were coming directly from RBK. So for detail freaks like myself and others the team issue jerseys are a slight notch above retail authentics, but no one is expecting them to be on par with game issue or game worn jerseys.

Looking at the definition listed on xahlgoalie's auctions, I say that's a fair definition:

TEAM ISSUED:Purchased by the team but was never customized. No name and number and or special tagging.

[NYIJM29]

I agree with Matt, very nicely done.

I use team issue/pro stock interchangeably.

Why isn't there any complaints about these auctions using team issued/pro stock

http://www.ebay.com/...=item460442ec35

Louis, I understand GI is intended to be worn for the player and sizes should match up, customizations be accuarte. But all of MeiGray's jerseys are team issued. They are overstock of what? They are overstock of pro stock jerseys. Pro stock = team issued because it is intended for a professional team. You cannot simply get an authentic 2.0 unless Reebok manufactures them for your professional team. Since they are exclusive for professional teams, they are team issued.

[xahlgoalie]

Just reading through posts

Joe you were at the auction and testified in the hearings. You saw a lot of the stuff there but you didn't see things we bought not part of the auction so to be fair. You don't know everything we have. I go by what John tells me things are. If something isn't right I change it as soon as I confirm like the Roy someone posted about. So I was screwing people because I was told it was something different but now that I know what it is I am an idiot for changing the listing? If you ever want to talk I will give you my number. I always have time to learn about the jerseys but don't send me nasty emails. Just not the right way to go about it. As far as the patches I assume you are talking about the meigray? So I am not supposed to sell them? Just toss them in the trash? If they were that concerned someone could have contacted me as the sharks did. I gave them shirts back at NO CHARGE. That I guess is how I screw people. Anytime you want to talk. Let me know. I am in your neck of the woods once a week. Thanks

[BPerkins]

But it doesn't automatically not make it a team issued jersey just because it is missing a patch either. You cannot simply right off things because you don't like the terminology of other items listed. The AHL jerseys listed are more likely team issued jerseys than retail jerseys.

Team issued means the jersey belonged to the team and was intended for their use (this has always been the meaning I used). So listing a jersey as team issued, by definition is not wrong. What about all of those people who bought MGG overstock and got them customized to their favorite players? Hypothetically speaking, say someone ordered a 1.0 NYI Navy size 58 and got it customized to Tavares. Is the jersey no longer team issued because the owner customized the jersey to a player who didnt wear a size 58 and never wore a 1.0? No. The jersey is still team issued. Not game issued (I understand your argument in regards to GI).

Question: When does, say a MeiGray tag, get added to a jersey? Once it is customized? Before it gets customized? After it gets customized and goes to MeiGray? What if the team did not belong to MeiGray and the jerseys were stamped by Cutting Edge...then when were the jerseys stamped? Before customization? Right before going out to a team?

I agree with Matt, very nicely done.

I use team issue/pro stock interchangeably.

Why isn't there any complaints about these auctions using team issued/pro stock

http://www.ebay.com/...=item460442ec35

Louis, I understand GI is intended to be worn for the player and sizes should match up, customizations be accuarte. But all of MeiGray's jerseys are team issued. They are overstock of what? They are overstock of pro stock jerseys. Pro stock = team issued because it is intended for a professional team. You cannot simply get an authentic 2.0 unless Reebok manufactures them for your professional team. Since they are exclusive for professional teams, they are team issued.

Without provenance, "team issued" it is just a blank authentic. A direct link for that particular blank shirt back to the team ... otherwise the "team" claim is tenuous at best. An entire set of specialty night jerseys made for the Texas Stars hit ebay last year after the team returned them to Reebok because they came out in the wrong shade of orange. They were pro spec, pro cut, 2.0 jerseys manufactured for a professional team ... but not in any way issued by the team. They were sold as pro return gear, not team or game issued although they were partially customized (numbers on, no nameplates). Meigray's overstock blanks are shirts that teams bought and subsequently never needed to customize. They had Meigray tags inside that are then removed before sale to prevent them hitting the secondary market later as customized authentics with that authentication tag inside.

Just so everyone is clear, this is not my job it was something I did as a hobby. I do not expect everyone to believe what we have but I do have a letter from each of the owners explaining what they are. Some are clearly game worm because of wear and repairs and some were prepared for players and teams but for whatever the reason, maybe because of the lawsuit never left their shop. I welcome everyone's feedback because I am not an expert or claim to be. We did make a mistake on the Roy and ended up changing the listing as well as a couple others. The all star patch I sent out was not listed correctly so I told James to keep it and I would refund his money so he is out nothing. Most jerseys I accept best offers unless I only have one in which case I hold out for more. There is no deception on our end. We list as to what the people who owned the jerseys tell us what they are and if it ends up being a mistake we fix it. I agree with some of the guys on the board. If you don't like it or think we are scammers. Don't buy it and don't message me telling me I am dishonest. We have sold over 90 items in the last 2 weeks and with the exception of 1 patch and 1 jersey everyone has been very happy. Not sure what else to tell you other than these jersey never left the warehouse so most were never finished and you wouldn't see some tagging that you normally see. Hope that helps. Thanks

The "game issued" Predators are for the most part the wrong size. With the exception of the innagural season shirts you have listed, they should have a Meigray tag inside and if truly customized for the team, the Cutting Edge customization markings. Without them, the linkage to the team is questionable. The sizing issues on those, and other, jerseys and at least one example of a player jersey allegedly ordered by the team using with a mismatched manufacturer's embroidery to the season in question hurts the credibility of the "issued" claims.

Off topic:

I do not consider jersey overstock that MeiGray sells or gives away at the Expo to be 'Team Issued' and I do not believe MeiGray would ever use that term. They are over stock, remainders, whatever. If I customize one, I consider no better than a better quality authentic. Just because it 'might' have gone to or been used by the team does not make it a team issued jersey.

A 'Game Issued' has to have been prepared for a specific player, in THEIR size, to have potentially been worn in a game. Anything else is nothing more than a 'sample'.

Exactly. Sullivan in a 58 and Jessiman in a 54 aren't requests a team is going to make for a player. A Kariya with CCM on the hem doesn't match what the team wore in his time there. A jersey a team might have purchased is nothing but a blank until altered for a player.

Ok so everyone is hung up on the terminology. So what should I call them. If a jersey was purchased by the team and then sent to be customized, if there are extra they are not team issued? They are replica? Doesn't make sense to me. If it belonged to the team then it was issued by the team. Butaybe I missing something.

If a jersey was purchased by the team, what was Cutting Edge doing with someone else's property for all of these years? Just another question of provenance here.

How can a jersey that is never customized ever be issued? Possibly team owned. Possibly team sent out for customization, never to return. The best descriptive words I can think of that don't potentially compromise integrety would be "pro cut" "pro spec" or even "claimed by ownership of Cutting Edge to be team purchased" ... but if it was never even readied for distribution, the word "issued" is incorrect. Just look at the wording Meigray uses on their blanks in the clearance section. Another telling detail, Meigray blanks are sold as something other than "team issued" even with the direct linkage to team's authentication program.

[Gr8erade]

BPerkins, are all 8 of your posts here all in this thread? And you're over in the thread that was linked to as well. What's your point? You already clearly stated that "you're steering clear of these jerseys" and "you're spending your money elsewhere." That's the exact advice that has been given to you, and it is also what xahlgoalie has told you to do as well. To continue to argue seems an awful lot to me like you've got a personal axe to grind. If you haven't bought anything, and you've clearly said that you don't intend to, then please give it a rest.

[BPerkins]

BPerkins, are all 8 of your posts here all in this thread? And you're over in the thread that was linked to as well. What's your point? You already clearly stated that "you're steering clear of these jerseys" and "you're spending your money elsewhere." That's the exact advice that has been given to you, and it is also what xahlgoalie has told you to do as well. To continue to argue seems an awful lot to me like you've got a personal axe to grind. If you haven't bought anything, and you've clearly said that you don't intend to, then please give it a rest.

There's nothing personal about it. Incorrect sized jerseys sold as "game issued" isn't personal, it's about the integrity of the jerseys. Questions about why a CCM hemmed Predators jersey when they were all Reebok lettermarked below the collar during his time isn't personal, it's about the jerseys. Believing that words mean things so terminology matters isn't personal.

You've obviously read my posts on both forums. Where in any of those posts is anything personal? Every one of my posts on the subject focuses on lack of provenance, sizing that doesn't make sense for the players a jersey was allegedly issued to, an ever evolving story about the history of the Roy (again, a provenance issue), and an incident of a player/manufacturer combination that shouldn't have existed.