Cutting Edge closes?

[Gr8erade]

There's nothing personal about it. Incorrect sized jerseys sold as "game issued" isn't personal, it's about the integrity of the jerseys. Questions about why a CCM hemmed Predators jersey when they were all Reebok lettermarked below the collar during his time isn't personal, it's about the jerseys. Believing that words mean things so terminology matters isn't personal.

You've obviously read my posts on both forums. Where in any of those posts is anything personal? Every one of my posts on the subject focuses on lack of provenance, sizing that doesn't make sense for the players a jersey was allegedly issued to, an ever evolving story about the history of the Roy (again, a provenance issue), and an incident of a player/manufacturer combination that shouldn't have existed.

My friend, there are plenty of mislabeled and misrepresented jerseys posted in this forum all the time, and this is the first and only thread that you've decided to participate in. And you continue to participate in it, even though you've made it clear that you're never going to buy one of these jerseys. That reeks of having some sort of axe to grind. You've made your points, in my opinion, it is time for you to pick a different topic to participate in.

[BPerkins]

My friend, there are plenty of mislabeled and misrepresented jerseys posted in this forum all the time, and this is the first and only thread that you've decided to participate in. And you continue to participate in it, even though you've made it clear that you're never going to buy one of these jerseys. That reeks of having some sort of axe to grind. You've made your points, in my opinion, it is time for you to pick a different topic to participate in.

One, we are not friends. Second, you are posting about where I've chosen to post rather than the topic at hand. Since you're apparently keeping count of how many posts I make in this thread, maybe you should look at how many of them are direct responses to other people in the discussion of the items xahl purchased from Cutting Edge and subsequently listed on ebay and compare that to the now two posts wasted responding to you and your posts taking issue with me participating in the topic at hand.

Saying that "there are plenty of mislabeled and misrepresented jerseys posted in this forum all the time" sounds like a total copout and an acceptance of such behavior. I hope that isn't the case.

[HockeyMusic]

Agreed....let it go, you made your point and some members agree with you.

Beating a dead horse just makes you look like the jackass in the end even if you are right.....

I was probably one of the people who pointed out the flaws in the Roy jersey listing.....I wrote him a message and (I hope) wasn't rude about it......just pointed out the errors......

I still don't agree with the price he has it listed for, but it is his jersey (unfortunately, as I wish I had it) and he can list it for whatever price, I can just make offers and hope he accepts.

[Gr8erade]

One, we are not friends. Second, you are posting about where I've chosen to post rather than the topic at hand. Since you're apparently keeping count of how many posts I make in this thread, maybe you should look at how many of them are direct responses to other people in the discussion of the items xahl purchased from Cutting Edge and subsequently listed on ebay and compare that to the now two posts wasted responding to you and your posts taking issue with me participating in the topic at hand.

Lighten up Francis.

Saying that "there are plenty of mislabeled and misrepresented jerseys posted in this forum all the time" sounds like a total copout and an acceptance of such behavior. I hope that isn't the case.

There's a 274 page thread up above that seems like you should be very much interested in. Have fun.

[NYIJM29]

Without provenance, "team issued" it is just a blank authentic. A direct link for that particular blank shirt back to the team ... otherwise the "team" claim is tenuous at best. An entire set of specialty night jerseys made for the Texas Stars hit ebay last year after the team returned them to Reebok because they came out in the wrong shade of orange. They were pro spec, pro cut, 2.0 jerseys manufactured for a professional team ... but not in any way issued by the team. They were sold as pro return gear, not team or game issued although they were partially customized (numbers on, no nameplates). Meigray's overstock blanks are shirts that teams bought and subsequently never needed to customize. They had Meigray tags inside that are then removed before sale to prevent them hitting the secondary market later as customized authentics with that authentication tag inside.

That is nitpicking. Pro return is the same thing as overstock, issued, whatever you want to call it. C'mon man. They're people peddling fakes on eBay (and it can be argued that it is decreasing the value of our collections) and this is what concerns you the most?

[xahlgoalie]

No one answered my question yet let me try again:

If a team purchased lets say 20 jerseys and only had 18 customized. What does that make the 2 leftover?

Team issued? Authentic? What would you call them because they were clearly owned by the team for the players. And why does it matter why they were left behind? Does that change the authenticity of the jersey?

[Brilliant!]

Keep it civil or else this gets shut down.

[chadarini]

Team issued does not mean issued by the team; it means the jersey was issued to the team for use and was never used. The misinterpretation of those two letters get people confused from the get go

[TMLFAN]

No one answered my question yet let me try again:

If a team purchased lets say 20 jerseys and only had 18 customized. What does that make the 2 leftover?

Team issued? Authentic? What would you call them because they were clearly owned by the team for the players. And why does it matter why they were left behind? Does that change the authenticity of the jersey?

Either or is fine in my book as long as the jersey is blank. If you take a blank jersey that came from a team and then add a kit to it you can no longer call it a team issue since it didn't come from the team lettered. For example, I bought a team issue Maple Leafs third jersey from Meigray that I later added a Lindros kit to. The jersey was from Meigray and is the same size Lindros wears but I can't call it a team issue because I was the on who added the kit.

Anyways, back on topic. You have any Katrina Relief Fund patch's?

[HockeyMusic]

No one answered my question yet let me try again:

If a team purchased lets say 20 jerseys and only had 18 customized. What does that make the 2 leftover?

Team issued? Authentic What would you call them because they were clearly owned by the team for the players. And why does it matter why they were left behind? Does that change the authenticity of the jersey?

Your answer in bold....

And no, authenticity does not change (they are not "fakes") it just means that they carry no more value than a pro jersey you could buy in the store, so for instance, if you were to sell one of these leftovers at a $500 price point, odds are it will remain in your hands for a while, unless you come across someone who both wants it badly and has tons of disposable income and too lazy to find one at a cheaper price.

[BPerkins]

That is nitpicking. Pro return is the same thing as overstock, issued, whatever you want to call it. C'mon man. They're people peddling fakes on eBay (and it can be argued that it is decreasing the value of our collections) and this is what concerns you the most?

Much to the chagrin of Gr8terade ... I shall respond. If I keep replying here, we may test his counting ability.

Provenance matters. If you are going to state that a jersey came from a team, have the proof to back it up. Not somebody else said it's good ... have the paperwork that says shirt X (that very shirt, not a generic statement of pile of shirts sent in) was sent from Team Y. I'll once again reference how Meigray handles their blanks. Authentication tags removed, nothing in the listing stating "team issued". Using your wide acceptance of "team issued" I could list a jersey returned by a team because of a manufacturing error with such a description even though they never even made it to the locker room. Nitpicky? Maybe.

The "game issued" shirts that don't match what a player wore are irksome and raise questions. Too often we see jerseys that have gone from collector to collector with verbal claims to what it truly was, only to find out later that the original description was wrong. Asking the questions early helps mitigate that problem.

The only issue I've really seen with how xahlgoalie handled these listings is not doing his homework on exactly what he had before listing. There are far too many resources out there to make the mistake like claiming the Roy was his first white jersey, or not catching the sizing issues on some of the "game issued" shirts. The blanks are just that ... blanks. A "team issued" is nothing beyond an authentic without provenance. There are a couple of them that I've mentioned specific issues with because, well, there are issues with them. If a jersey raises a red flag or two, those need to be addressed before they start floating around the hobby.

And this is far from what I'm most concerned about. Jerseys are a hobby.

[Gr8erade]

Much to the chagrin of Gr8terade ... I shall respond. If I keep replying here, we may test his counting ability.

<-------- Not so hard to keep count.

You'll throw me off if you ever post in another thread though.... LOL. I'll let you go back to your argument about semantics now. But thanks for calling me out.

[BPerkins]

And why does it matter why they were left behind? Does that change the authenticity of the jersey?

Why would a customization shop keep somebody else's property for years, if not a decade plus in some cases?

It doesn't change the authenticity of the jersey if it is in the same condition it arrived in, or received ordered services (especially if the accompanying paperwork survives) ... but if a jersey were to get sewn up years after the fact, I'd see that as an authenticity issue (not saying that happened, purely hypothetical that could impact a shirt's authenticity).

[xahlgoalie]

Ok. Maybe this helps. I can't post it so I will type a portion of what the notarized letter says:

Over the years cutting edge sports has customized numerous NHL, NBA, AHL and college team uniforms.

The teams send to cutting edge their inventory to be customized and leave extra jerseys in case there are new players, torn jerseys or whatever might be needed. At the end of each season some teams request their inventory be returned immediately whe others leave their remaining inventory to be used at a future date. Each year more jerseys arrive.

The partnership broke up in 2007 and litigation followed. As a result of that litigation the court ordered the jerseys remaining prior to 2008 be sold at auction the auction took place June 8th 2012. Xahlgoalie purchased most of the inventory. "

That letter is signed and notarized. Anyone who would like a copy is welcome to it.

[xahlgoalie]

The problem is a lot of people can't wrap their head around what we have. I tried to explain but I think I am done. Simple fact is....

If you don't believe. Don't buy.

[BPerkins]

Ok. Maybe this helps. I can't post it so I will type a portion of what the notarized letter says:

Over the years cutting edge sports has customized numerous NHL, NBA, AHL and college team uniforms.

The teams send to cutting edge their inventory to be customized and leave extra jerseys in case there are new players, torn jerseys or whatever might be needed. At the end of each season some teams request their inventory be returned immediately whe others leave their remaining inventory to be used at a future date. Each year more jerseys arrive.

The partnership broke up in 2007 and litigation followed. As a result of that litigation the court ordered the jerseys remaining prior to 2008 be sold at auction the auction took place June 8th 2012. Xahlgoalie purchased most of the inventory. "

That letter is signed and notarized. Anyone who would like a copy is welcome to it.

That letter does nothing as far as individual jerseys. It also fails to explain why so many shirts were there and how they could possibly sell them off without the permission of the various clubs involved ... unless there is a provision in Mass. law transferring ownership of the jerseys after a certain period of time ... an abandonment statute for lack of a better word. (Mass. property law isn't an area of my expertise)

When I speak of provenance of a jersey, it is at the individual jersey level. For example, the "game issued" Sullivan Predators is a size 58, yet he wore much smaller jerseys in the same years according to Meigray's population report. Cutting Edge did sewing for teams and individual collectors alike. What documentation exists saying that particular jersey was sent by Pete and his crew in Nashville for customization ... what they requested to have done ... and then why it wasn't returned to the team? After at least eight years, that's a lot to expect for a paper trail on a shirt to verify it was in fact intended to be an issued Sullivan jersey and that it wasn't a collector's shirt or a jersey mistakenly done in the wrong size.

The problem is a lot of people can't wrap their head around what we have. I tried to explain but I think I am done. Simple fact is....

If you don't believe. Don't buy.

The changing descriptions and several questionable listings make it appear that you've also had difficulty wrapping your head around what you have. What it appears you bought, as far as hockey jerseys go, are a lot of left behind shirts with no provenance. There were also multiple shirts that were customized yet not returned to the club nor done in the correct size. On top of that are shirts such as the Roy which lack provenance and create their own set of questions.

Edited July 7, 2012 by BPerkins

[xahlgoalie]

I could give you all the paperwork I have. 2 notarized letters from the owners. Canceled check and invoices from the teams( which I have ). The letters from the teams asking for their jerseys back from the courts. ( which I have ). The court ruling etc. I could give you all of that and you still wouldn't believe me. So I am all set. Have a good night

[BPerkins]

I could give you all the paperwork I have. 2 notarized letters from the owners. Canceled check and invoices from the teams( which I have ). The letters from the teams asking for their jerseys back from the courts. ( which I have ). The court ruling etc. I could give you all of that and you still wouldn't believe me. So I am all set. Have a good night

If you notice, my major issues are limited to a few jerseys and the general provenance problem. Do your invoices say Cutting Edge received X number of jerseys by size for a team in a given year, and account for which then went back to the clubs or just show what the company received? If the paperwork can't account for every jersey in and out for every team by year, there is still an issue. For the jerseys with identified sizing problems, is there any explanation for it? If not, you're left trying to sell a "game issued" shirt that will fail any authenticity test. Do the "game issued" shirts contain the proper Cutting Edge markings for the various teams and seasons?

Some of your listings raise questions. Your declaration that I wouldn't believe you does nothing to answer them. It's like putting up the article about Roy's jerseys in every listing ... it doesn't go to the issue at hand. Honest answers, honest explanations, and supporting facts where needed create a situation where the only reasonable choice is to believe.

Provenance is a major factor when it comes to jerseys ... especially game issued and worn shirts.

Edited July 7, 2012 by BPerkins

[NYIJM29]

At least the jerseys are customized accurately

[BPerkins]

At least the jerseys are customized accurately

As long as you don't look at the size tag on some of them.

[xahlgoalie]

Like I said. Believe what you want. Post what you want. I really don't care. Not going to debate with you all night. My offer still stands to anyone on the board. If there is anything you want or would like to know, just ask. Only reason I joined was to answer questions and help out to the best of my ability, my email address is in the thread if anyone needs anything. Good luck guys

[BPerkins]

Like I said. Believe what you want. Post what you want. I really don't care. Not going to debate with you all night. My offer still stands to anyone on the board. If there is anything you want or would like to know, just ask. Only reason I joined was to answer questions and help out to the best of my ability, my email address is in the thread if anyone needs anything. Good luck guys

I just asked you several questions that go to the jerseys you have listed. Did I ask the wrong ones? Here's your chance to live up to your stated reason for joining. I'll ask again for your convenience.

-Do your invoices say Cutting Edge received X number of jerseys by size for a team in a given year, and account for which then went back to the clubs or just show what the company received?

-For the jerseys with identified sizing problems, is there any explanation for it?

-Do the "game issued" shirts contain the proper Cutting Edge markings for the various teams and seasons?

[xahlgoalie]

Last post Perkins and then you can bash me all night, like I said really don't care.

Most of the invoices I have have lists of players, sizes, what numbers and any special instruction that were faxed on team letterhead. And no there isnt a list of what was sent back to the team because obviously a lot were not sent back and that's why they were at auction. I can't tell you why jerseys were left behind or why a size may not match the almighty meigray lists. There were problems at cutting edge and the only people who could answer some of your questions are the owners. So in short. I can't answer some of your questions.

As far as the sizing problems you refer to I do not know the size every player of every team wore. You obviously do. If they don't match up there could be a hundred different reasons. Made by accident? Test size returned? Made for a certain game? A promo jersey? Take your pick. As far as I have read we are debating 2-3 jerseys out of almost 500+ that I have.

And finally as far as the markings some have them and some don't. Either they never got finished or never put in for whatever reason I can't answer that.

That's what I got. Take it or leave it. I said I would answer questions and help out. But you are just trying to prove some kind of point which I don't what it is and trying to get under my skin to get to some answer you want. Do me a favor and PLEASE don't buy any of the items. In fact I'll pay you not too. Good night my friend

[BPerkins]

Last post Perkins and then you can bash me all night, like I said really don't care.

Most of the invoices I have have lists of players, sizes, what numbers and any special instruction that were faxed on team letterhead. And no there isnt a list of what was sent back to the team because obviously a lot were not sent back and that's why they were at auction. I can't tell you why jerseys were left behind or why a size may not match the almighty meigray lists. There were problems at cutting edge and the only people who could answer some of your questions are the owners. So in short. I can't answer some of your questions.

As far as the sizing problems you refer to I do not know the size every player of every team wore. You obviously do. If they don't match up there could be a hundred different reasons. Made by accident? Test size returned? Made for a certain game? A promo jersey? Take your pick. As far as I have read we are debating 2-3 jerseys out of almost 500+ that I have.

And finally as far as the markings some have them and some don't. Either they never got finished or never put in for whatever reason I can't answer that.

That's what I got. Take it or leave it. I said I would answer questions and help out. But you are just trying to prove some kind of point which I don't what it is and trying to get under my skin to get to some answer you want. Do me a favor and PLEASE don't buy any of the items. In fact I'll pay you not too. Good night my friend

I'll take $15,000 to not buy from you. You stated you'd pay me not to buy from you ... let's see if you're a man of your word. I take a certified check. (subject to negotiation) Or would you like to pay me by listing not to buy?

You haven't listed 500 hockey jerseys yet ... especially not as "game issued". Off the top of my head the Tootoo, Sullivan, Jessiman, and Owen were way off on sizing. The Meigray population report shows what size every one of their jerseys was, by set and year. It's a resource, check your listings before posting. For players who don't have shirts from the Meigray era, google old jersey auctions ... you can usually find a player and what size shirt they wore. Big guys like Jessiman don't suddenly end up in a 54 while tiny guys like Sullivan don't all of a sudden end up in a 58. All of those are listed as "game issued" which should be a game ready jersey that simply wasn't worn. The wrong size is a red flag here.

If the documentation provided by Cutting Edge showed what went back out and not just what came in, you could then come close to accounting for what you should have by team, year, size, color, etc. Without that, there is no way of knowing what you bought is what should be there. Once again, provenance. Right now you can't say Cutting Edge took in say 20 size 56 2010-11 white jerseys from TEAM_X, and sent 17 back customized leaving 3. There's no checks and balances system in place.

Mentioning in the listings which jerseys have the Cutting Edge markings and including a photo goes a long way in answering questions. Of course, that's assuming they have the right markings. Some of the Predators should have a stamp, some a sewn in tag. The same goes for other teams. Some teams had no markings in their gamers. Just another example of Cutting Edge setting you up for failure.

If you're going to claim you're here to answer questions, you really can't get upset when they get asked. Getting defensive doesn't look good. You and your partner are the ones who chose to buy a lot of memorabilia with questionable provenance and try to make money on ebay. Some of what you bought and are trying to flip raises red flags. It probably is something you should have anticipated.

One thing I held back on earlier, but, since you chose to come across as defensive and claim that asking questions about the details of your listings is "just trying to prove some kind of point which I don't what it is and trying to get under my skin to get to some answer you want" I'll bring it up now. You claim this is a hobby, yet your latest jersey photos show what appears to be a memorabilia shop in the background. I was going to say a great collection, but, some of the Bruins pucks and other items in the background have what appear to be price tags on them. The only answer I wanted was explanation of the provenance of the shirts you're listing and how "game issued" shirts could be so far off on sizes. Every question I asked was the direct result of what YOU chose to put in your listings. Details matter. Accuracy matters. When those are lacking, questions arise.

[HockeyMusic]

What is there not to understand........they are obviously not jerseys meant for the players to wear.....you've discovered that, others have too......you're obviously not going to buy.......we're done here.

Can we lock up this thread.....I think we get the point here........let him sell his jerseys in peace....if they are listed with the incorrect terminology, given the information here and on other resources, you can easily determine what is what....