chow_hound Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I have no law background whatsoever and cant provide any contact info but something to consider. The NHL right now has lost a large amount of a season and hundreds of millions in lost revenue due to the lockout. Right now there are reports of sports stores losing over 50% of regular sales of nhl merchandise and businesses near sporting arenas of nhl games losing 11%. When this all gets sorted out the league is going to have a lot more on their plate then figuring out how to handle counterfeit products on a worldwide level. The difficulty is that you are dealing with counterfeiters who primarily make top teams and superstars. You could go and get 15 teams who dont even face the issue of lost revenue because no-one fakes an Islanders or Hurricanes jersey etc... The biggest counterfeit markets are vancouver toronto montreal detroit etc. Teams that make humongous revenue from ticket sales, overall merchandising and large fan base demand who probably represent a less than 1% loss to counterfeit products in comparison to their overall profit. Because counterfeit merchandise will always exist you cant prevent average joe fan from buying a counterfeit and sue him for wearing or owning it. In order to actually have the NHL go through with a law suit against many independant companies in china and be successful is almost impossible. Think of how long companies like Louis Vuitton or Prada or Nike have had countless counterfeits made for and are still out there today. Dont get me wrong, id love to see the end of fakes and have all the companies and individuals producing them get sued and stopped but im pretty sure the NHL has already done the math and figured out the time and cost and energy to really go after them is not worth the miniscule amount of revenue leakage they current face just like any other global products based company does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyOnTheSpot Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I appreciate the input. I know the dire circumstances, and I also know of how to kill counterfeiting. I'm not looking to attack it overseas, I'm looking to cut off a part of the market. Think small scale like I am. A ton of these people buying them have no idea you can get them overseas, they get them on eBay or some market here. Flea markets are huge in Philly and where most people I know get them (the ones that get counterfeits). I know the counterfeit market really well because I shop around, know people in the flea market business, etc. I talk to everyone. So if you eliminate 1) counterfeit Flyers jerseys on eBay and 2) all local instances of the secondary market, you're eliminating most of the counterfeit Flyers jerseys in the area. It's not your ordinary fan buying from overseas, it's typically a dealer who brings them over and flips them in person or on eBay/Craigslist (which I also plan on monitoring). So you eliminate the secondary market from a city, and the Chinese aren't going to produce that jersey in nearly such a high capacity. You start doing this slowly, eliminating demand by eliminating the secondary market and ignore production, production will naturally decrease and they'll put their eggs in better baskets. Now regarding the NHL, yes I know that is a market on life support right now. I also know the MLB and NFL are the main players, and the Phillies certainly have the money to do this. I'm not limiting myself to the NHL, it's just the market I'm the most comfortable with. That's the only reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thk25 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Johnny, I don't totally agree with your supposition that most people buy these jerseys from flea markets and Ebay. Though some must use those sources, there is nothing to stop the average consumer from using the dozens of sites which sell directly to individual consumers. Hell, I have known people who have used those sites to buy jerseys in the past. The problem is that by trying to stay small you really aren't combating anything. It could create a temporary shortage, but those losses could be easily replenished. For example, before the Winter Classic last year millions of dollars of counterfeit merchandise was confiscated but did it stop people from buying counterfeit merchandise? No. Counterfeiting needs to be address in China where the merchandise is made, which is something which Reebok, Adidas, or maybe the NHL (but its Reebok's problem first) have the resources to handle. I am really sorry that I only seem to post disheartening things but the counterfeiting problem cannot be attacked piecemeal in small markets. Even large corporations are finding out the hard way that addressing counterfeiting in China is a very costly and time consuming process which costs millions annually and entails hard work by both domestic and foreign counsel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastadutchie Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Johnny, I don't totally agree with your supposition that most people buy these jerseys from flea markets and Ebay. Though some must use those sources, there is nothing to stop the average consumer from using the dozens of sites which sell directly to individual consumers. Hell, I have known people who have used those sites to buy jerseys in the past. The problem is that by trying to stay small you really aren't combating anything. It could create a temporary shortage, but those losses could be easily replenished. For example, before the Winter Classic last year millions of dollars of counterfeit merchandise was confiscated but did it stop people from buying counterfeit merchandise? No. Counterfeiting needs to be address in China where the merchandise is made, which is something which Reebok, Adidas, or maybe the NHL (but its Reebok's problem first) have the resources to handle. I am really sorry that I only seem to post disheartening things but the counterfeiting problem cannot be attacked piecemeal in small markets. Even large corporations are finding out the hard way that addressing counterfeiting in China is a very costly and time consuming process which costs millions annually and entails hard work by both domestic and foreign counsel. I disagree. It is impossible to combat it in China because....well, China doesn't give a sh*t. This week in Toronto millions of dollars of fake goods were seized. Everything from fake Viagra, to fake stuffed toys, to fake jerseys. Stuffed toys were found to contain rat droppings and dog fur. Fake Denver Broncos jerseys were coloured with dyes that contained traces of urine. Western manufacturers are unable to do anything about it and do business in China due to labour savings. Any corporation doing business in China knows the risk to their IP. Adidas, Nike, Reebok and the hundreds of other manufacturers have had their IP raped for decades but continue to do business there because their profits are still massive. Those profits are going to executives and shareholders, not to fight counterfeits. As soon as your product reaches a manufacturer in China, you can be sure within a couple months it will be on the counterfeit market in some fashion. There is little to no respect for IP in China. I agree that the problem of internet orders from China are a big (and growing) part of the problem these days. Those are impossible to stop unless the Chinese government cooperates. But the hundreds of local dealers selling it physically in flea markets and classifieds/auctions are also profiting big time. These jerseys cost $20/each when you buy them by the case. They are selling them for $60-80 on average, and some are trying to pass them off as collectors items and listing them for $150. That is unethical and they need to be stopped too. When you don't have a good partner at the source, you have to fight where you can. That said I feel that the only way to combat the fakes is for manufacturers to lower the retail price of the real licensed goods. Most fans want it cheap and care little about the construction of the jersey, so they choose the knockoff. The fact that we can find brand new authentic jerseys at $60-80 on sale tells me they can make goods in Canada/USA and still make a healthy profit. Their greed takes them to China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyOnTheSpot Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Johnny, I don't totally agree with your supposition that most people buy these jerseys from flea markets and Ebay. Though some must use those sources, there is nothing to stop the average consumer from using the dozens of sites which sell directly to individual consumers. Hell, I have known people who have used those sites to buy jerseys in the past. The problem is that by trying to stay small you really aren't combating anything. It could create a temporary shortage, but those losses could be easily replenished. For example, before the Winter Classic last year millions of dollars of counterfeit merchandise was confiscated but did it stop people from buying counterfeit merchandise? No. Counterfeiting needs to be address in China where the merchandise is made, which is something which Reebok, Adidas, or maybe the NHL (but its Reebok's problem first) have the resources to handle. I am really sorry that I only seem to post disheartening things but the counterfeiting problem cannot be attacked piecemeal in small markets. Even large corporations are finding out the hard way that addressing counterfeiting in China is a very costly and time consuming process which costs millions annually and entails hard work by both domestic and foreign counsel. Lol nah dude not disheartening at all, two sides to every coin and I need all the input I can get. Need to see it from every angle. See you're probably used to intelligent people lol. I grew up in the city, Port Richmond in particular, and the common idiot has no idea they can order overseas and would be scared to. I know a ton of people with counterfeits, hell people that know about where to get them themselves still go to flea markets just for ease. The flea market counterfeit business is staggering. I mean it'd blow you away if you saw it. They move in the thousands every week and show up with moving trucks filled. With that said, I am staying small but feel that small impact 1) will be an impact and 2) can grow into more of an impact. It's a start, it's grassroots for sure. I just think you're underestimating the impossibility of combating this overseas and the effect cutting off the secondary market would have. That's all. I don't think I can end counterfeiting, but I sure as hell think I can make a difference. I'd actually be curious to see the percentage of counterfeits in the US that are moved solely through eBay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00xtremeninja Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 you need to hire Erin Brokovich and have her sit in a building with a bunch of papers and folders so she can find the two sentences that are a loop hole in this whole process. I imagine the line would read "known counterfeit goods from China are allowed to be carpet bombed by US or Canadian ariforces as they are coming across the sea." you'll get rich and famous and then pay me a portion for suggesting you find a single mother struggling to make it in the world but can do it through hard work and determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyOnTheSpot Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 you need to hire Erin Brokovich and have her sit in a building with a bunch of papers and folders so she can find the two sentences that are a loop hole in this whole process. I imagine the line would read "known counterfeit goods from China are allowed to be carpet bombed by US or Canadian ariforces as they are coming across the sea." you'll get rich and famous and then pay me a portion for suggesting you find a single mother struggling to make it in the world but can do it through hard work and determination. Or I'll interview her and think she's a velociraptor due to her enormous mouth, causing me to run, trip over a cord and out a 13th story window, leading to my demise. No thanks, I choose life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00xtremeninja Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 are we talking about the real life erin brokovich or julia roberts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 You can't fight China.... hell they have no problem building a 100% knockoff of a car a jersey is a cake walk for them, as for the sites..... hell when you Google Sports Jersey, Knocksoffs or Cheap or China comes up in the search right away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastadutchie Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyOnTheSpot Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 are we talking about the real life erin brokovich or julia roberts? Julia Roberts lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00xtremeninja Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 ok fine, how about this. "you find an Erin Brokovich-ESQUE" woman and do all of the aforementioned. you find one who is suitable in looks and then you can bang her out over your millions on your desk. Xtremeninja, solving other peoples dilemmas tactfully, tastefully, and sexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsl135 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Check your PMs Johnny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeccaDon123 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Hey Johnny, maybe it would help if you got some local publicity. Like taking on a local, decent sized, sports collectable store and having them be forced to pull all their china made fakes. Remember the issue i mentioned when i 1st joined the boards? Well i went back to the store and they gave me a store credit for $250.00. In the process of trying to buy something else(other jerseys including framed jerseys costing upward of $500-$600) they advised me that ALL THEIR JERSEYS WERE FROM CHINA. (INCLUDING, NHL,NFL,NBA, AND MLB) Most of which carry tags stating they are authentic and licensed. They even had a fake replica Bobby Clarke(yes their replicas are fakes) A lot of the jerseys were signed with JSA COA's (among others). the night manager basically admitted this to me via the store owner (that was on the phone telling him what to say to me)..they even attempted to resell the Giroux jersey while i was still looking around...im seriously thinking about going back with a hidden camera...if all the jerseys are fakes..what else is fake? Now that i've learned what i've learned from you guys in my short time here, the things this store is doing is insulting. They have signings at this store and everything. They recently had Brian Westbrook and Carlos Ruiz there. They also had a JSA rep there verifying signatures this past year. Now i know that anyone can take something fake and get it signed, but HOSTING AN ATHLETE RETIRED OR OTHERWISE AT A LOCATION THAT ONLY SELLS FAKE JERSEYS????? I wonder how quick these athletes would stop going there if they only knew that all they sell are fakes!!!! Exposing a place like this may get you on the map. If you have any questions (whether you're interested or not)let me know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OR68 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I would demand my money back if that's true. Why would you want store credit if there all fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Red Wings Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 If you paid with a card, then why not talk to the credit card/debit card company and explain your plight, wouldn't they refund the charge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeccaDon123 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 1st I have absolutely nothing to gain from this. I could sell the GC right out front of the store for 200 if i needed to. The issue is, i was so happy to get a signed Giroux jersey(just like a lot of other fans whom are not "jersey experts") that i threw the receipt away. So i didn't push for money back originally. I saw a nice signed full sized Dawk helmet i'd take, but then was told it was a replica. I paid cash for the jersey. The only proof i have that the jersey was bought there is a pic of the jersey i posted on facebook highlighting the story of how i stumbled on such a "gem". I didn't mention the store by name, but i didn't mention the location(the mall its in). So thats why i didn't push for cash immediately. Then i decided to use the GC for future signings. I have about 5 jerseys i want signed so it should work out in the end. But, even more importantly than me getting a few hundred dollars back is that there are countless fans that think they are getting the real deal when they see that JSA COA(my thinking was, who would have a fake signed)...so i will be made whole in the end...but in the mean time...there are hundreds of people being "jersey raped" by these OUT IN THE OPEN HUSTLERS THAT ARE MAKING MONEY HAND OVER FIST. THESE guys could also just as quickly dismissed me and said i have no proof. So it seems they wanted to do the right thing. But i when i initially talked to the owner on the phone i mentioned THIS WEBSITE and i mentioned i was a new member of a few other websites where this story wouldn't be well received.(at the time of that conversation i had no idea all the jerseys there were fake). So it seemed like when i started mentioning "jersey collector websites" he was quick to want to help me, receipt or not. (he also mentioned wanting the Giroux jersey back in time to sell it for Christmas SMH). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johansson Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tom-prochnow/4/461/127?_mSplash=1 Perhaps you can gain an audience with this gent to give you some insight from NHL. He worked on Flyers marks for NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeccaDon123 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 http://www.linkedin..../127?_mSplash=1 Perhaps you can gain an audience with this gent to give you some insight from NHL. He worked on Flyers marks for NHL. thanks for the link but i have no idea what to say to him...i don't even know what he does...and i was actually only offering this issue to johnny as a target and starting point to possibly help him get some publicity for what he's attempting to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsl135 Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hey Mecca, by any chance is the store in the Willow Grove Mall? I saw that place (store name escapes me right snow) and even called them out on twitter. They of course lied and gave some song and dance about how the signature is authentic while I continued to point out that the jersey is a counterfeit. Was just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girouxsalem Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I believe the store he is referring to is in Concord Mall in DE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeccaDon123 Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Hey Mecca, by any chance is the store in the Willow Grove Mall? I saw that place (store name escapes me right snow) and even called them out on twitter. They of course lied and gave some song and dance about how the signature is authentic while I continued to point out that the jersey is a counterfeit. Was just wondering. no it isn't I believe the store he is referring to is in Concord Mall in DE you are correct sir i don't know how the mods feel about new members making accusations such as this....nevertheless its the truth...if anyone wants to stop in there and buy a jersey for proof.....i have a $250 store credit i'll sell for $200 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunkyardAthletic Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Long read... I'll say this, you point the finger at China and yes, they are a big problem. HOWEVER, if the NHL has turned their head to companies here in the U.S.A. making counterfeit jerseys, then your "job"/"hobby" is going to be a rough one. It is the NHL that controls the licensing of all of the logos. Any jersey with a player name on it shares the revenue with the NHLPA, and, the NHL also is supposed to monitor this. Teams have a "regional" license that can be assigned to local vendors in order for them to make certain products, however, jerseys are not part of that. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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